Point of transcendence

At what point of development does one cease to be human? The paradox of Theseus' ship illustrates the problem of defining the point of passing on to a transhuman existence. Each part of the ship is replaced in turn, until all the original components of it have been replaced. Is this still the same ship? With a continuum of changes and modifications made to the biological and/or psychological make-up of a human, where do we draw the line, saying that this person is no longer human?

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Miguel Antonio Cortés Muñoz on October 5, 2009 at 12:26pm: @Damjan Cvetkov Dimitrov...

You seem to be very proud of your scientist reason and techno-centric, too focused on the technological side of the human equation and not so aware of other dimensions of our being. And this seems to be a big problem with transhumanists, as they are great at understanding the incredible transformative power of technology, but very limited in other areas as politics, psychology, sociology, art and philosophy. To me transhumanism is very useful for understand technological evolution, but it is very limited as as philosophy on so many levels.

Also it seems to be there is a confusion between intelligence and wisdom or creativity. I doubt that machines will be wiser or more creative than us. A machine that is a trillion times smarter than us, will not necessarily be a trillion times wiser or more creative. Although they certainly have that possibility.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Damjan Cvetkov Dimitrov on October 5, 2009 at 2:54pm: @Miguel

You have a very normal stance on this issue, default. You won't have any trouble to find support on this issue. Most people like to conserve their bodies and their surrounding, but Transhumanism is trying to extend what a regular human is thought to be, and of course transcend that. Why limit ourselves with what we have been, when we can be so much more without the shackles of what we were.

Actually I am studying classical philosophy and history of philosophy right now :]
And to tell you the truth, I am quite aware of your dimensions, iv'e traveled to a few, didn't really notice anything like god, spirits, funky spirits or anything that would satisfy a persons mind that we are being taken care of something greater (with beard), the universe is not detached from our emotions and ethics. So I have checked there too, I am quite thorough like that.

Do you know that the building you are standing on, and the thing that you press, to express yourself, is all made of science? The good old stuff... Iterating tools, technology on top of technology... But that's allright, its the new stuff that you think its weird right?

I really like standing on top of science and empiricism and detached higher reasoning, it usually helps me evade a hole in the ground or prevents me entering a cage full of lions... That's my experience I guess :\; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Miguel Antonio Cortés Muñoz on October 5, 2009 at 4:46pm: @Damjan...

You have a very normal stance on this issue, from a transhumanist perspective. Unfortunately for you, human beings are much more than machines, either biological or not. We have emotions, psychological complexes, fears, hope, et al. So your scientific/technological reductionism seems ridiculous to a sophisticated humanist like me.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by tleilaxu_chemist on February 12, 2010 at 6:49pm: All of your examples are the results of our brains. Just because we don't understand how it works doesn't make it supernatural. We are machines, just biochemical instead of mechanical, and that's not a bad thing. Why is a nueral net so much worse than a soul? Just because one appeals to societally imprinted ideal or an emotional state does not make it right.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Syzygy on February 12, 2010 at 7:14pm: Actually, depending on your religion/system of beliefs, "soul" is a very subjective term.
Contrary to popular misconception, the Christian definition of the soul is that the soul and the body are one and the same. There is no pale ghost that flies out of you when you die and goes into a dark tunnel with a light at the end of it. (at least, according to my beliefs) By my reasoning, there is no difference between the neural net adn the soul, they are synonomous with on another. (I guess, according to scripture, people get to heaven/hell at the end of time, when somehow God or someone reconstitutes everyone who ever died or something. I'm not to clear on that part)

And honestly, I agree with the guy who said "I cannot believe the same God who endowed us with intelligence and reason intended us to forgo their use."

There is room faith in the realm of science, you just need to think deeply about it instead of beating people on the head with a bible yelling "PRAISE DA BABY JESUS! OR ELSE!"; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Adam James Davis on October 19, 2009 at 9:33am: To become cishuman is to ascend and
Descend
To become human is to ascend and
Descend
To become transhuman is to ascend and
Descend
The person broke out of the oppressive
Feedback loop, not by furiously thrusting
Out of it, but by not moving at all.
To explore outside the constant of change
Requires progress and innovation
Wait!
Don't move...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Syzygy on January 15, 2010 at 5:24pm: Hmm, well, I guess it depends on how you define "Human". As species, once we go posthuman, we'd technically no longer be human, we'd be machines.

As for Thesueus' ship, even after replacing all the parts, the ship is still a ship, isn't it? It's just far more efficient than it used to be.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Aliey Ball on February 14, 2010 at 8:48pm: We humans, became cyborgs the moment we picked up the first stone or club. With those inaugural, most simplistic of tools we began extending the limits of our physiology.

Back to the question of when does a human stop being a human?
Humans (Homo-sapiens) are a species, and species are (currently) defined by their ability to breed.
A great dane (with or without a bionic hip reconstruction), can breed with a Chihuahua -
albeit with human intervention - yet not with a cat.

I would say we have interesting times ahead!; ▶ Reply to This